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I’m unspoiled for the finale beyond the trailer, so this is all very unfounded speculation, but bear with me as I pop into the time machine.
Supernatural also has a strong tendency to repeat itself over and over again. Sam calls Dean bossy, Dean insists it’s his way or the highway. Sam says that Dean doesn’t know him. But the very fact that Dean is *there* clearly shows that he does know Sam.
Let’s compare this with a few other fights the boys have had, shall we?
The Pilot – not knowing who the opponent is, testing, ending with the revealing of identity and the passing of that test as the resolution of that altercation.
Testing? Yes, definitely. Sam’s lost confidence in Dean’s abilities, while Dean has lost confidence in Sam’s intentions. Uncertain identity? The boys don’t know anymore who they are or who the other is and that’s what this fight was about.
Skin – Not!Dean and Sam have it out, complete with wanton destruction of innocent furniture. Not!Dean kicks Sam’s ass (and mentions that he always has) and is strangling him when Real!Dean shoots him.
Hm, strangling. Interesting mirroring there.
Asylum – Sam literally lost control of himself, but Dean knew Sam and knew the situation, anticipated it (by unloading the gun upstairs) and gave him an unloaded gun, then provoked him, forcing him to act and so regaining control of the situation.
There’s no way that Dean wasn’t intending to provoke Sam by calling him a monster (which has been Sammy’s hot-button since he was small) and there’s no way that Dean didn’t know exactly what repeating John’s most hurtful words would do to Sam and cause him to do, so I can only conclude that he fully intended what he did and intended to get the outcome that he did.
Born Under a Bad Sign – Not!Sam punches out Dean, then leaves him lying on the hotel floor. However, Dean knows Sam, knows that this isn’t Sam and so combats Not!Sam in proper ways, although he is initially defeated. Note the dock theme here too.
Again with the mirroring, in this case Sam leaving Dean injured on the hotel floor. But again, Dean knows Sam very very well.
Tall Tales – Immediately after BUABS, the boys are bickering, annoying each other, but ultimately still a team. A team that fakes out the opponent by pretending to be fractured.
Maybe, just maybe, that fight was for the edification of the watchers and not real. Hell, if Dean’s own head isn’t a secure place, most likely nowhere is. They’re being watched and they know it. I’m surprised that no one’s suggested this theory yet.
Sex and Violence – When the boys were set on each other by the siren (verbally, the fight was over the exact same issues as always), Dean kicked Sam’s ass and was about to kill him with a fire ax when Bobby showed up.
Every single time they’ve come to blows Dean’s ended up on top by skill or trickery (Not!Sam excepted). So why’d he loose this fight?
One last episode for comparison, not a fight: Nightmare. At the end, Sam expresses fear that he’ll become evil like Max, who turned on his family and killed them, and Dean says that he’s certain Sam won’t. Sam asks why and Dean answers that Sam has Dean. Dean places his own aid and companionship between Sam and whatever evil tendencies he may have right there.
And Dean just took that away. Dean had explicitly placed himself as the barrier between Sam and evil!Sam and he just destroyed that. Incidentally, this interpretation also fits very well with the episode title.
And incidentally the only place I can think of hearing before of an angel letting someone out of their bonds like that is in the Biblical book of Acts, where an angel releases Peter from prison, where his two guards are sleeping ( Acts 12:5-11).
So, um, yeah. That’s that. Tell me what you think; good, bad, indifferent?
Supernatural also has a strong tendency to repeat itself over and over again. Sam calls Dean bossy, Dean insists it’s his way or the highway. Sam says that Dean doesn’t know him. But the very fact that Dean is *there* clearly shows that he does know Sam.
Let’s compare this with a few other fights the boys have had, shall we?
The Pilot – not knowing who the opponent is, testing, ending with the revealing of identity and the passing of that test as the resolution of that altercation.
Testing? Yes, definitely. Sam’s lost confidence in Dean’s abilities, while Dean has lost confidence in Sam’s intentions. Uncertain identity? The boys don’t know anymore who they are or who the other is and that’s what this fight was about.
Skin – Not!Dean and Sam have it out, complete with wanton destruction of innocent furniture. Not!Dean kicks Sam’s ass (and mentions that he always has) and is strangling him when Real!Dean shoots him.
Hm, strangling. Interesting mirroring there.
Asylum – Sam literally lost control of himself, but Dean knew Sam and knew the situation, anticipated it (by unloading the gun upstairs) and gave him an unloaded gun, then provoked him, forcing him to act and so regaining control of the situation.
There’s no way that Dean wasn’t intending to provoke Sam by calling him a monster (which has been Sammy’s hot-button since he was small) and there’s no way that Dean didn’t know exactly what repeating John’s most hurtful words would do to Sam and cause him to do, so I can only conclude that he fully intended what he did and intended to get the outcome that he did.
Born Under a Bad Sign – Not!Sam punches out Dean, then leaves him lying on the hotel floor. However, Dean knows Sam, knows that this isn’t Sam and so combats Not!Sam in proper ways, although he is initially defeated. Note the dock theme here too.
Again with the mirroring, in this case Sam leaving Dean injured on the hotel floor. But again, Dean knows Sam very very well.
Tall Tales – Immediately after BUABS, the boys are bickering, annoying each other, but ultimately still a team. A team that fakes out the opponent by pretending to be fractured.
Maybe, just maybe, that fight was for the edification of the watchers and not real. Hell, if Dean’s own head isn’t a secure place, most likely nowhere is. They’re being watched and they know it. I’m surprised that no one’s suggested this theory yet.
Sex and Violence – When the boys were set on each other by the siren (verbally, the fight was over the exact same issues as always), Dean kicked Sam’s ass and was about to kill him with a fire ax when Bobby showed up.
Every single time they’ve come to blows Dean’s ended up on top by skill or trickery (Not!Sam excepted). So why’d he loose this fight?
One last episode for comparison, not a fight: Nightmare. At the end, Sam expresses fear that he’ll become evil like Max, who turned on his family and killed them, and Dean says that he’s certain Sam won’t. Sam asks why and Dean answers that Sam has Dean. Dean places his own aid and companionship between Sam and whatever evil tendencies he may have right there.
And Dean just took that away. Dean had explicitly placed himself as the barrier between Sam and evil!Sam and he just destroyed that. Incidentally, this interpretation also fits very well with the episode title.
And incidentally the only place I can think of hearing before of an angel letting someone out of their bonds like that is in the Biblical book of Acts, where an angel releases Peter from prison, where his two guards are sleeping ( Acts 12:5-11).
So, um, yeah. That’s that. Tell me what you think; good, bad, indifferent?
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 06:05 am (UTC)And I am thrilled to find another way in which Sam=Peter!! Thanks for that!
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Date: 2009-05-13 06:12 am (UTC)I wasn't sure if I should mention the replay fight in WIAWSNB or not, as it really didn't add anything to my argument, except maybe reinforcing that Dean was the one who taught Sam how to fight (he says he's almost embarrassed or ashamed at how easily Not!Sam went down, clearly linking Sam's fighting abilities to Dean).
And I'm really waffling between either thinking that was Not/Evil!Sam in 4.21 or that Dean intended to loose.
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Date: 2009-05-13 06:28 am (UTC)I suppose on thing that strikes me is that of the fights you mention only in the Pilot is there really no active supernatural element involved. The other times we've seen this are (I think) when Dean has hit Sam in Bloodlust, and again in Metamorphosis - both times when Sam did not respond.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 07:23 am (UTC)Also interesting is the difference between the use of "freak" and "monster". In the Pilot, Dean says that Sam needs to face up to the face that he's "one of us, a freak." Dean repeatedly self-identifies as a freak and says that Sam's the same.
Something else I found intriguing is that I couldn't find any examples of the boys fighting from season three. There are some verbal disagreements, but I'm pretty sure that they are all focused on Dean's deal and what to do about it.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 11:07 am (UTC)There’s no way that Dean wasn’t intending to provoke Sam by calling him a monster (which has been Sammy’s hot-button since he was small) and there’s no way that Dean didn’t know exactly what repeating John’s most hurtful words would do to Sam and cause him to do, so I can only conclude that he fully intended what he did and intended to get the outcome that he did.
I thought the episode made it pretty clear that Dean didn't know the hornet's nest he was poking by calling Sam a "monster". He doesn't know about Sam's hallucinations, nor about the implications from not!Dean (if Sam is a monster, it means that Dean doesn't love him, doesn't believe in him, doesn't think they're brothers, doesn't even think they're members of the same species, et cetera) that are what have Sam so very much on edge.
"Monster" and themes of monstrous creatures have been a sore spot for Sam, but if it goes back to when they were kids, I'd argue that previously it was with Dean self-identifying (as you mention) as a freak and Sam rejecting the same. The implications here (and to a lesser extent, this whole season) are different.
The other thing is that I can't see any signs that Dean wanted to fight Sam. Might have thought it necessary and been prepared for it, but that's different than wanting or picking a fight. I definitely don't think he wanted to lose like that, nor do I think Sam would have nearly so vicious had they been faking it. Dean got his ass kicked by a Sam who is professing to be in his right mind. I don't think it was due to any precooked plan, just unfortunately a sign of how very much Sam has lost it.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 02:38 pm (UTC)As for wanting a fight, there were points where they both reined in, trying to avoid one. Also, the show very pointedly has the conversation with Bobby advising Dean that the confrontation with Sam needs to be "about getting him back, not pushing him away."
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Date: 2009-05-13 03:04 pm (UTC)Eh, I think people give Bobby too much credit, to be honest. He's not their father, he doesn't know Sam like Dean does, and absolutely Dean needed to focus on getting Sam back, but I see nothing there to indicate that that wasn't Dean's main goal. It was just that he had an opportunity to completely remove Ruby from the picture (which I think few people would disagree would be good for Sam) and so dove for it. Unfortunately, he failed and that set up for the confrontation itself.
The only thing I can view as an active attempt to push Sam away was the "monster" comment, but even that I can't see as an insult or an attempt to wound Sam so much as an attempt to get through to him. I do agree that they both tried to communicate at the start though, I'm not saying by any means that Sam was looking from the start for a fight and was bound and determined to get one. For that, look at that last car ride in 4x20 - that's Sammy picking a fight. In 4x21, he was very much hopeful that they could "fix" things - so long as Dean went along with his plan.
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Date: 2009-05-13 04:44 pm (UTC)My point wasn't so much that Bobby knows what he's talking about (he doesn't know the boys *that* well, certainly not the way they know each other. In BUABS, he identifies Not!Sam by habitual paranoia, not through familiarity with Real!Sam.) but rather that they show felt the need to show us that conversation.
I think it could be argued that Dean's primary objective was killing Ruby, not reconciling with Sam.
Sam's attempt to pick a fight in 4.20 seemed to be an attempt get Dean to talk, to clear the air and start toward a resolution, not just being a jerk.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 05:00 pm (UTC)My gut response to that conversation is that they needed to have a sounding board for Dean so Show could explain why he was doing what he was and so they flipped-flopped Bobby's characterization so he could play devil's advocate.
As for Sam, I think Dean's priorities (killing Ruby and recovering Sam) were basically equal. For Dean, Sam's happiness has never come above Sam's safety. I think he saw Ruby and made an tactical decision to take her out, especially because they suspected her of having freed Sam originally. Even if he could get Sam back, there's no reason to think she wouldn't just free him again.
Sam's attempt to pick a fight in 4.20 seemed to be an attempt get Dean to talk, to clear the air and start toward a resolution, not just being a jerk.
I think you're giving Sammy waaaaay too much credit here. XD The closest we saw to Sam in his right mind was their earlier car conversation, where Dean tried to find out what was going on and Sam admitted that he was scared. Sam wasn't seeking to clear the air though, he wasn't trying to own up to anything or resolve anything, he was still very much hiding and keeping secrets.
Flash forward to the next car conversation. Look at their body language, the evocative words chosen. Sam was definitely trying to instigate a response, but he wasn't looking for a positive one. He wanted Dean to blow up so he could get angry himself. It wasn't to give Dean a chance to understand, it was to allow Sam to justify and excuse his actions and with as aggressively violent as the blood makes him, there's no doubt in my mind that Sam was (possibly subconsciously) hoping it would turn physical as well.
In a way, it was a repeat of their conversation in 4x16 where Dean said he was tired and Sam told him to get angry instead. Except that getting angry has only ever lead Sam to lose control and become overconfident and what good has that done to anyone? Dean's apathy also doesn't solve any problems, but he's been able to work past that on several occasions and actually make progress (with Sam, with the angels). We've yet to see Sam do so in regards to his anger.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 03:24 pm (UTC)I think the fight shows a Sam completely out of control -- the strangulation shows that to me -- though he did wrest himself away from Dean at the last moment before Dean lost consciousness. I read Dean's comments -- that he was a monster and not to come back -- as well as Dean's tear -- to mean that Dean was pretty much thinking of his promise to kill Sam if Sam went evil. He knows he can't do it, and that's why he warned Sam that he's a monster if it's not something he can turn away from, and not to come back, because the last thing Dean wants to do is Hunt Sam. "If I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you." "You don't know me, you never did, and you never will." So then Dean HAS to say, "If you walk out that door" ie, choose to become a monster " don't you ever come back" BECAUSE if Dean doesn't know Sam, he HAS TO HUNT HIM.
BUT OF COURSE DEAN DOES KNOW SAM. As long as Sam REALLY ISN'T a monster. I'm pulling for Sam BIG TIME for the finale, but hopes are low.... s5 will be THE HUNT FOR SAM i fear!!
my icon = samndean hunters brothers together
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 04:30 pm (UTC)I'm seeing a lot more Christ imagery attached to Sam than Dean (hanged man in this ep, stigmata courtesy of the ghouls). Has anybody mentioned that in both Gnostic and Mormon thought, Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. Even in conventional Christianity, both are called the evening star. Incidentally, Jesus is the younger.
I personally figure that if Dean does kill Sam he'll kill himself immediately after, maaaaybe managing to hold out for suicide-by-werewolf.
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Date: 2009-05-13 04:54 pm (UTC)I think that we're supposed to understand that Dean loses the fist fight in 4.21 because Sam is now dee-monically enhanced. But I think the comparison you do to earlier fights is interesting because it puts them in the context of communication between the brothers.
When the physical conflict isn't being supernaturally induced, it has always been Dean punching Sam when he can't (won't) find the words to express his anger and frustration (in addition to the ones you mention, I'm thinking of the mild punch he throws at the end of BUaBS).
It's not the best form of communication, obviously, but for Dean, I feel like he thinks a punch might be cleaner than the words he would be otherwise forced into saying.
Here, it's Sam, much more a-typically, who resorts to physical violence rather than trying to continue the conversation (yet another sign that it's not!Sam, I guess, in a literal way).
And then Dean falls back on old words, words that aren't his own, and that were disastrous the first time the first time they were spoken.
Which is just to say: I know communication has never been the strong suit of the Bros. Winchester, but here, where words fail, and bodies fail, it seems pretty bleak!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 08:47 pm (UTC)The thing that struck me rewatching the fight in 4.21 is that they both are actually trying to *talk* and both force themselves to calm down and be rational. I think the only other time we've seen that was in MATEOTB.
Part of it is that Dean is a MAN and the show actually portrays some of the disadvantages of that status along with the advantages, like being shit at emotional communication.
I'm suspecting that Dean lost because he's uncertain, on some level he didn't want to win or didn't want to do what it would take to win. Dean's waffled on Sam's powers, he's waffled on Ruby (using her was DEAN'S idea, something everyone seems to have forgotten), and he doesn't trust the angels.
I did consider the punch at the end of BUABS, which is notable in being completely undeserved, not to say that I don't understand why he did it, but it was still completely unwarranted. Fans seem to tend to canonize Dean and forget that he's had more than his share of less than stellar moments. (the flashback sequence in the Christmas Special particularly sticks in my craw. Seriously, I've always been told that stealing people's Christmas presents is right up there with kicking kittens.)
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 10:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-17 05:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 09:27 pm (UTC)I love the theory that it's all one big fake out. That would make my season. And I could see the boys doing it--I think they'd still know each other enough to be able to pull it off, the reveal could show us a quick flashback of looks or specific words chosen or something, I don't know. Doubtful it will happen (what with the whole demon blood angle), but it would be beyond cool.
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Date: 2009-05-14 01:54 am (UTC)The entire reason they had the fight was because Dean wanted to kill Ruby, but within the fight itself he didn't attempt to leave to follow her or anything like that. I do agree with you that Dean's reluctance to actually hurt Sam hampered him.
If it is a fakeout, I doubt that we're finding out about it before next season. The biggest reason that I think this is a viable theory is that no one's proposed it; they really like pulling stuff like that.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 11:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-13 11:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-17 02:37 am (UTC)Nice callback, yes!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-17 05:25 am (UTC)