Ma’am, your psyche is showing
Apr. 3rd, 2009 08:23 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
isaacsapphireI don’t even know if saying this ‘out loud’ is a good idea, but it’s really getting to me and I know it’s going to leak out if I don’t let it out. So… a response to the response to 4.18, which was itself a response to the response to the show. And ‘response’ doesn’t even look like a word anymore.
I was a bit surprised at the insulted tone that many fans have taken over the mentions and representations of fandom, fangirls, and slash in 4.18. Now, this isn’t exactly an empirical way of judging, but I didn’t see anything insulting at all, rather the opposite actually.
I’m seeing some people who feel the representation of fans was highly insulting, bla bla bla. I’ve read several fanfics that covered the same ground (Winchesters discover a story based on them, complete with fans and slash.) and the episode was far kinder than any of them. The show was nicer to us than we are to ourselves. The show was pretty much, “Huh, that’s weird.” whereas the fics have been more like, “Brain bleach! Now!”
I theorize that the negative interpretation of the representation of fans in 4.18 is not related so much to the text, but rather to the viewer. This episode holds up a mirror and presents some ink blots. If you see something you don’t like, maybe it’s you.
I think this episode has forced fans to look at themselves more objectively. It didn’t even do it that hard by my opinion, but certainly harder than shows normally do. Some of them don’t like what they see. I think this has more to do with the fan’s internal conflict than the show. People compartmentalize their lives, separating different aspects and functions of themselves. Say, work-self and church-self and seeing-grandma-self. And for fans, fan-self.
Strangely, when the work itself broke the fourth wall, apparently that fan-self was threatened with collision with more public selfs. Alternatively, the more public selfs were forced to look at and acknowledge the fan-self.
There’s knowing and then there’s knowing. It’s possible to know something without knowing you know it. For lack of a better example; some people have always known that they are attracted to their own sex, but only become aware that they are gay at a certain, specific point in time. It’s not that they didn’t know before, but they didn’t know-know. It hadn’t gotten through to the top layer of the brain or something.
I think layers of knowing applies to this situation more directly too. It’s no secret that the show watches the watchers closely. They say it on the first season DVD commentary (US DVD, as someone with a UK one pointed out). They say it at conventions. Repeatedly. People thought it was neat when possible references to fanworks, such as Sam’s fear of Ronald McDonald or someone falling in pie were made, but these things were more vague. Deniable. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn’t, but wouldn’t it be cool if she does? But I’m thinking that maybe the uncertainty factor was important there. The ‘maybe’ was needed to keep the more central self from going, “OMG! Someone saw me with my psyche showing!” There’s this idea of fandom as a closed community, of just “us” but that’s just not true. It was once, but that was in my mother’s era, back when it was mailing lists, Xerox was the preferred method of copyright violation and fanfic distribution, and Kirk/Spock was the OTP.
There were debates back then as to whether to allow the creators to know about slash or fanfic. The conclusion seems to have been that it was better not to rub their faces in it. But even back then, the idea that the show itself might be aware of fanfic and slash freaked fans out badly.
Those days are over though. With the rise of the internet came the rise of a new era of fanfiction and slash, one where twelve year olds became part of the production and consumption. One where anyone with a PC and a modem could wander in. And fans realized that ‘outsiders’ could see, but apparently that wasn’t such an issue, at least not to all the new people who came in looking for more Harry Potter.
Subconsciously, fans must be aware that they can be seen by outsiders. But the possibility that someone who’s not one of the girls seeing your gay incestuous spanking fic or whatever didn’t seem to be one too many people dwelled on. Sure, people have spare accounts for slash because their RL friends and family are aware of some of their internet names. But it was on a personal level; I don’t want my grandma to know.
But there’s also the issue of the broader scale; Do people in general know? (eg. everyone else’s grandma) Again, subconsciously, people must be aware that it’s a real possibility at the very least. But they didn’t think about it much, with a few exceptions that were usually triggered by outside action. (eg. locked snarry communities in response to livejournal strikethrough.)
Your mom-self doesn’t approve of what your fan-self is doing, for example, but you ignore this dichotomy. There’s a term for holding two contradictory positions simultaneously, but I can’t remember what it is at the moment. That’s what’s going on here though. And yes, it hurts to be forced to confront these issues. Trust me, I know.
On further consideration though, I’m not surprised. The fan-self is often a much less guarded, much more transparent self then would be safe or healthy to have in public. The fan-self is often a grand demonstration of all the weirdest, most twisted, perverted, and inappropriate things in a person. No surprise that people don’t want the world to know about this. The very nature of fanfiction is questionable legally and the content often includes things that are illegal in at least some places, or ridding the ragged edge of legal, forget about socially acceptable.
I’ll admit, I feel conflicted about my own fan-ness. I’m not happy when one of my friends sits down at the lunch table and announces, “[My name] likes to read and write stories about brothers boinking.” My family vaguely knows that I write fanfiction, as do my friends. I mean, I have to attack someone with my stuff in person. The porn is more discrete though, mostly because my friends aren’t into slash/yaoi.
On further consideration, I think that part of the reason this fourth wall breaking doesn’t bug me is that I started with yaoi, not slash. Yaoi is based on anime and manga. In manga, characters breaking the fourth wall and talking directly with the audience, yes, even about slash (in non-yaoi books) is not uncommon. In Western works this is rare enough to be worth mentioning when it occurs, but it’s practically endemic in manga. I can rattle off examples of fourth wall breaking in Western works, but I can’t for manga because it happens so much there.
In conclusion... I don’t have a conclusion. If I did, it would be something about fans and psychology and self and stuff. Hey, make up your own conclusion and write it below :)
I was a bit surprised at the insulted tone that many fans have taken over the mentions and representations of fandom, fangirls, and slash in 4.18. Now, this isn’t exactly an empirical way of judging, but I didn’t see anything insulting at all, rather the opposite actually.
I’m seeing some people who feel the representation of fans was highly insulting, bla bla bla. I’ve read several fanfics that covered the same ground (Winchesters discover a story based on them, complete with fans and slash.) and the episode was far kinder than any of them. The show was nicer to us than we are to ourselves. The show was pretty much, “Huh, that’s weird.” whereas the fics have been more like, “Brain bleach! Now!”
I theorize that the negative interpretation of the representation of fans in 4.18 is not related so much to the text, but rather to the viewer. This episode holds up a mirror and presents some ink blots. If you see something you don’t like, maybe it’s you.
I think this episode has forced fans to look at themselves more objectively. It didn’t even do it that hard by my opinion, but certainly harder than shows normally do. Some of them don’t like what they see. I think this has more to do with the fan’s internal conflict than the show. People compartmentalize their lives, separating different aspects and functions of themselves. Say, work-self and church-self and seeing-grandma-self. And for fans, fan-self.
Strangely, when the work itself broke the fourth wall, apparently that fan-self was threatened with collision with more public selfs. Alternatively, the more public selfs were forced to look at and acknowledge the fan-self.
There’s knowing and then there’s knowing. It’s possible to know something without knowing you know it. For lack of a better example; some people have always known that they are attracted to their own sex, but only become aware that they are gay at a certain, specific point in time. It’s not that they didn’t know before, but they didn’t know-know. It hadn’t gotten through to the top layer of the brain or something.
I think layers of knowing applies to this situation more directly too. It’s no secret that the show watches the watchers closely. They say it on the first season DVD commentary (US DVD, as someone with a UK one pointed out). They say it at conventions. Repeatedly. People thought it was neat when possible references to fanworks, such as Sam’s fear of Ronald McDonald or someone falling in pie were made, but these things were more vague. Deniable. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn’t, but wouldn’t it be cool if she does? But I’m thinking that maybe the uncertainty factor was important there. The ‘maybe’ was needed to keep the more central self from going, “OMG! Someone saw me with my psyche showing!” There’s this idea of fandom as a closed community, of just “us” but that’s just not true. It was once, but that was in my mother’s era, back when it was mailing lists, Xerox was the preferred method of copyright violation and fanfic distribution, and Kirk/Spock was the OTP.
There were debates back then as to whether to allow the creators to know about slash or fanfic. The conclusion seems to have been that it was better not to rub their faces in it. But even back then, the idea that the show itself might be aware of fanfic and slash freaked fans out badly.
Those days are over though. With the rise of the internet came the rise of a new era of fanfiction and slash, one where twelve year olds became part of the production and consumption. One where anyone with a PC and a modem could wander in. And fans realized that ‘outsiders’ could see, but apparently that wasn’t such an issue, at least not to all the new people who came in looking for more Harry Potter.
Subconsciously, fans must be aware that they can be seen by outsiders. But the possibility that someone who’s not one of the girls seeing your gay incestuous spanking fic or whatever didn’t seem to be one too many people dwelled on. Sure, people have spare accounts for slash because their RL friends and family are aware of some of their internet names. But it was on a personal level; I don’t want my grandma to know.
But there’s also the issue of the broader scale; Do people in general know? (eg. everyone else’s grandma) Again, subconsciously, people must be aware that it’s a real possibility at the very least. But they didn’t think about it much, with a few exceptions that were usually triggered by outside action. (eg. locked snarry communities in response to livejournal strikethrough.)
Your mom-self doesn’t approve of what your fan-self is doing, for example, but you ignore this dichotomy. There’s a term for holding two contradictory positions simultaneously, but I can’t remember what it is at the moment. That’s what’s going on here though. And yes, it hurts to be forced to confront these issues. Trust me, I know.
On further consideration though, I’m not surprised. The fan-self is often a much less guarded, much more transparent self then would be safe or healthy to have in public. The fan-self is often a grand demonstration of all the weirdest, most twisted, perverted, and inappropriate things in a person. No surprise that people don’t want the world to know about this. The very nature of fanfiction is questionable legally and the content often includes things that are illegal in at least some places, or ridding the ragged edge of legal, forget about socially acceptable.
I’ll admit, I feel conflicted about my own fan-ness. I’m not happy when one of my friends sits down at the lunch table and announces, “[My name] likes to read and write stories about brothers boinking.” My family vaguely knows that I write fanfiction, as do my friends. I mean, I have to attack someone with my stuff in person. The porn is more discrete though, mostly because my friends aren’t into slash/yaoi.
On further consideration, I think that part of the reason this fourth wall breaking doesn’t bug me is that I started with yaoi, not slash. Yaoi is based on anime and manga. In manga, characters breaking the fourth wall and talking directly with the audience, yes, even about slash (in non-yaoi books) is not uncommon. In Western works this is rare enough to be worth mentioning when it occurs, but it’s practically endemic in manga. I can rattle off examples of fourth wall breaking in Western works, but I can’t for manga because it happens so much there.
In conclusion... I don’t have a conclusion. If I did, it would be something about fans and psychology and self and stuff. Hey, make up your own conclusion and write it below :)
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no subject
Date: 2009-04-24 12:22 am (UTC)Right after MATEOTB, a friend on imdb said in a post-
Although how ridiculous is it that while I was watching that I thought "hey, I'll bet this ends the are-they-avoiding-confronting-Wincest debate"?
And I was agreeing in .5 seconds. They confonted it, but did it in such a comedic manner, that it definitely did not come off as judgemental at all. I think the taboos at least as far as Sam/Dean specifically go are really crumbling down now. (or at least that is the impression I had gathered from seeing this comment in the show) They have been breaking down for a while as the ship has gotten more and more attention. Like on that one ausiello scoop late last year, when he mentioned two guys hooking up in an upcoming season. He said
"And sorry Supernatural fans, but it's not Sam and Dean."
Just mentioning it like that as if it is just your everyday ship, that means it's getting more and more mainstream acceptance. But this episode really helped the ship along (at least I think it was positive) It's just like writers/critics, veiwers and online media outlets are giving acceptance to the shipping of Sam/Dean. And it's just an acknowledgement of the intense, desperate and pretty much all-consuming relationship that the writers themselves created between two television brothers.
I definitely think though, at least as far as Sam/Dean goes...people are starting to say "Ok ok...I get it." And then they ship it or they don't. But it is by no means the *shocked* OH MY GOD *gasp* Sam/Dean????? idea that it was when the show first started.
I still get blown away by the fact that Kripke acknowledged the existance of the idea that some ship a gay brotherly realtionship on the TV show. As far as I could tell he had outed it and it is pretty much validated as a real ship.
So I agree with you, I happened to be on the side of fans that were utterly PLEASED with the mention. My post about the episode was a bit crazier and er.....*cringes* fangirlish, than your intelligent post, but I am quite an enthusiastic person. lol
I know this is cheesy but if you care to gander at my insane reaction to 4.18, you can find it here (http://nola-rue.livejournal.com/5324.html).
no subject
Date: 2009-04-24 12:30 am (UTC)I said all of that nonsense and I didn't even mention that I thought this was an extremely insightful comment of yours-
I theorize that the negative interpretation of the representation of fans in 4.18 is not related so much to the text, but rather to the viewer. This episode holds up a mirror and presents some ink blots. If you see something you don’t like, maybe it’s you.
Very profound and accurate IMO.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-24 03:19 am (UTC)And there's nothing wrong with your reaction being fangirlish. My actual response to the show was less reasoned. Heck, I wrote (someplace else) that I felt like the Show had essentially pulled the covers back on the bed and said, "I know you are over there in the corner jerking off, come on in though." They freaking made us canon! They finished the ep with the order, "Write." for goodness sake!
I do wonder how many viewers that hadn't previously considered slash are now going, "Hm, Sam/Dean. That sounds kind of good..."
And yeah, the normalization of slash (incestuous slash nonetheless), is very significant to fandom collectively, not just the SPN fandom, and by extension important to women and gays as well. (ok, maybe I'm getting a little over the top there, but it really is big.)
Part of it is that unlike any other shows with slashers, SPN is incapable of moving away from what makes it so slashable, so they have no choice but to accept it. The relationship between Sam and Dean is the core of the show. MATEOTB is the most they could do to address the issue.
I've been asking around, and as best as I can tell, this is the first time slash has been mentioned in a TV show ever. Freaking 9 o'clock too. I'm really looking forward to that SPN special for Transfomative Works.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 02:27 am (UTC)YES. YES. YES. That is so right. It is unavoidable. I remember for the little bit that I read Clex (SV slash was the first m/m ever read) most of the stoies only REALLY seemed to be believable when they were set in first or second season. I think it was even mentioned on one of the extras on a DVD or an article that fans were latching on to all the subtext written between Clark and Lex and the writers literally did their best to cut that completely out of the show. They really did everythign they could and it made a difference. It was one of the reasons that I couldn't continue to read the pairing. It just wasn't believable because it wasn't supported by the show.
But as you said, Kripke and Co. really don't have a choice. There is no walking away from the brothers intense relationship because that is what the show is founded on. It's what has drawn in the viewers, Wincest fans or no. So I think you hit it right there when you said that they kind of have no other choice but to act accepting of it because they really are incapable of as you said "moving away from what makes it so slashable."
Good or bad they created this utterly co-dependent, intense, needy relationship between the brothers and that is what everyone wants, that is what makes the show so good (and incidentally slashy) so they can't really cut it out. They must see it through.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 08:50 am (UTC)It's not even that Sam and Dean's relationship is what's drawn the fans; it's that it if simply impossible to describe the show without it. Any changes that could be made would make it worse, not better. (like them not being brothers. Then we'd still have a very slashable buddy cop type show) Supernatural without the slashy subtext isn't Supernatural, couldn't even vaguely resemble it. The show is stuck with its slashers and it seems like they've accepted that.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-27 02:07 pm (UTC)Yep. And something that I find funny is that, those who don't like the idea of an incestuous relationship really do have an option to slash Sam and Dean together, if in an AU universe they were written as NOT being brothers. But you can literally barely find an Sam/Dean non-brother AUs out there. In my two years of reading extensively through Sam/Dean fanfic from LJ and Sam/Dean slash archives, I have come across very few.
I just find that funny because for those who get squicked by the sexual nature of Wincest, trying an alternate route to slash them seems like the most likely solution. One would think, they are great characters with brilliant personalities AND of course they are both ungodly hot. Just make Sam and Dean not brothers and then you have no squickiness. But it makes me lol because NO ONE wants to do that. You know why??
Because slash between Sam and Dean is not appealing because of their characters/personality or hotness. It all comes down to the bond. The bond that stems from their BROTHERLY relationship. That is basically what draws anyone to slash the two. It has nothing really to do with those extra factors.
So I just think it's funny that people basically REFUSE to write about Sam and Dean not being brothers. If people don't like the incest idea, they just stick to reading gen or het because they can't read the boys without that bond. It makes everything infinitely worse. Sam and Dean just don't work without the brotherly bond.
So I just concur with your statement wholeheartedly. Any changes about the boys would make it worse not better. And that is proven because even in fanfiction, AU stories based off of Sam and Dean being friends or strangers, just don't work. And the fandom as a whole just refuses to write non brother Sam/Dean.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-27 06:08 pm (UTC)I find that the non-brother AUs totally don't work for me simply because not only is their relationship intrinsically a sibling one, irreplaceable by any other bond, but the characters themselves are so built on *being* brothers. Dean with no little brother Sam isn't Dean.
The loyalty, the trust, the level of dedication, and the childish playfulness and humor between them simply cannot be replicated by anything but a sibling relationship. Also the amount of crap they put up with from each other would have sent friends or lovers to opposite corners of the universe a long time ago.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-24 05:05 pm (UTC)I never thought about it in this context before though. It reminds of me Freud: Your Fan-self is the Id, telling you "Do it do it do it.", your Mom self is your Super-ego, shaking her head at you in shame, and your Actual Self is the Ego, trying to constantly please the Id, Super-ego and society at once.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-24 11:08 pm (UTC)That is how you'd put it in Freudian terms. Thanks, I can never remember which one's the Ego and which one's the Super-Ego.
One of my major goals for self-development is to integrate all aspects of my personality and have them be internally consistent, mostly so stuff like this doesn't happen.
I wandered into the Supernatural fandom from the Devil May Cry fandom, where twincest is the major slash pairing and almost all the slash pairings are incestuous (even Dante/Nero is suspect, as they are probably somehow related). From that fandom I realized that I really like broslash.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 02:31 am (UTC)After I discovered the Sam/Dean ship and kind of went "Um okay, no squicky feelings AT ALL about the brothercest, Britt?" and then I kind of thought back and I think I have always been drawn to incestuous relationships growing up. I was a HUGE fan of Flowers in the Attic and pretty much all of V.C. Andrews work. Taking a look at here writing as whole, not just FitA, actually a huge amount of her books have incesty stuff woven into them.
Plus I was a huge fan of the movie Dune, so when Children of Dune was created on the Sci-fi channel I fell IN LOVE with Leto and Ghanima. They were extremely close twin brother and sister and I sat through that whole miniseries wanting them to be together. I swear to GOD they almost kissed at the end, but I guess the Sci-Fi channel wouldn't go there *grumbles* but anyway.....
Yeah, I guess it was just a matter of destiny that had my discovering Sam/Dean because I pretty much was all set to love it even before I found it.
no subject
Date: 2009-04-26 08:31 am (UTC)Before I moved into fandom, the dirtiestwrongest thing I'd written (at least that was intended for anyone else to read) had explicit sister/brother desire as a major motivation. And there was the little personal porn universe of two brothers and two sisters who "desired only each other." Actually, I think my *first* personal porn universe was sister/brother slash (shapechangers are awesome for porn).
So yeah, I joined this fandom because I LOVE broslash; it's not a problem in the slightest for me.
Also, the main pair of RL guys that I always use as writing inspiration are brothers... although they would probably disembowel me if they knew. There are some things good Marines don't do, especially with their brothers.